Dutch bishop: Call God ?Allah? to ease relations

[Gotch]

The religious beliefs of Christianity are contrary to the actions taken by a highly political entity hiding behind the veil of those beliefs while constantly attempting to alter the belief system to fit their ever changing needs.

I don't think most Christians feel a need to
apologize for or feel guilty about these actions because they don't see them as having a true tie to "their" belief system, and they would be right in nearly every case.

[sup-rbeast]

As would the case be when applied to other religions as well.

[Gotch]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sup-rbeast</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As would the case be when applied to other religions as well. </div></div>

No.

There is where is difference is.

1. If you confront most any Muslim with the historically provable fact that Mohammad was a serial rapist and murderer they will deny it.

If you confront most any Christian with the facts of the inquisition they will most likely agree that it was horrible and wrong. They may distance their belief system from it as I have done, but they will not attempt to simply deny that it happened.

2. You would have a hard time finding a catholic priest willing to publicly defend those who molest children.

You would have a hard time finding a Muslim Cleric willing to criticize the 911 bombers.

3. The inquisition (for example) was the result of an organized structured body (the RCC) giving direct orders. Was not the result of the general belief system of a large group of loosely organized Christians. In fact many of it's victims were Christians.

The 911 incident was the result of the radical belief system of a loosely organized group of Muslims, carried out against none Muslims and in an extraordinary number of cases defended, denied, or minimized by the general Muslim population.


If you look at the argument what do you see?

You see just what I stated earlier. Everything that Christians are asked to defend are the actions of the RCC or members of the RCC.

[sup-rbeast]

You see things one way, I see them another...all of your posts are aimed particularly at Muslims...who you obviously have little or no real world experience with, cuz all your arguments and examples deal with extremists (like Christianity has none)..besides there are more religions on the planet than that...but really that is why I like this forum...I get to confront religious bigotry...anyways, I've had my say so I'm done with this thread.

[Gotch]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sup-rbeast</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You see things one way, I see them another...all of your posts are aimed particularly at Muslims...who you obviously have little or no real world experience with, cuz all your arguments and examples deal with extremists (like Christianity has none)..besides there are more religions on the planet than that...but really that is why I like this forum...I get to confront religious bigotry...anyways, I've had my say so I'm done with this thread. </div></div>

My posts deal with Muslims as an example because they are a good example to compare in this case. I could just as easily pointed out the sexism in the Hindu religion, including the now exposed fact that Gandhi was a child molester.

You then turn to a personal attack ignoring my argument. See the fallacy in logic exposed by doing so at the link.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...d-hominem.html

[sup-rbeast]

Why not just point to sexism in the Christian Church, or child molesters in the Catholic Church...those religions are much closer to home and more high profile than any of the other religions you mention...

[Gotch]

Well, here we have it again, being placed in a position to defend the RCC. I don't have a dog in that fight. I feel no more responsibility or guilt due to the actions of the RCC than I do due to the actions of slave owners. That would amount to zero guilt and a little less than zero responsibility.

Sexism is a problem in some highly fundamental Christian churches. It's also a problem in alot of work places and schools, so go figure. Oh course I don't believe any are known for forced "female circumcision" which is currently rampant in Egypt, as Paul Harvey commented on today.

Since I don't attend organized church services and would walk out of one as soon as a sexist position is expounded I also feel no guilt or responsibility for that.

I don't deny that it exists, just that telling someone that they will go to hell if they don't wear a dress and forcefully mutilating their bodies do seem to me to be a different degree of
problem?

[sup-rbeast]

I'm not trying to make you defend any religion. I am just showing that it is hard to criticize a faith when the same things exist in the faith of the critic. This whole thing started as a debate over God's name...

[Gotch]

But the same things do not exist!

There is a fundamental difference between preaching that someone is going to hell because they don't believe as you believe and preaching that someone should be stoned to death or have a wall dropped on them because they don't believe as you believe.

Below are all Terrorist acts, as carried out by any group in history which has resulted in 100 deaths or more. Want to compare as to want religions are actually responsible for more deaths?

Those crazy Christians sure are dangerous..... [img]/LDPforum/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img]

11 Sep 2001 crashing of hijacked planes into World Trade Center, New York City, New York, Pentagon in Alexandria, Virginia, and site in Pennsylvania, USA 2,993 8,900
20 Aug 1978 arson of theater in Abadan, Iran 477 ?
1-3 Sep 2004 hostage taking at school in Beslan, Russia (includes 30 terrorists killed) 366 747
14 Aug 2007 multiple car bombings in Al-Qataniyah and Al-Adnaniyah, Iraq 344 400
23 Jun 1985 mid-air bombing of Air India flight off Ireland, and attempted bombing of second flight in Canada 331 4
12 Mar 1993 15 bombings in Bombay, India 317 1,400
8 Aug 1998 truck bombings of U.S. embassies in Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Saalam, Tanzania 303 4,954
23 Oct 1983 truck bombings of U.S. Marine and French barracks, Beirut, Lebanon 301 161
22 Sep 1997 attack at Ben Talha, Algeria 277 ?
30 Dec 1997 attack at Ami Moussa, Algeria 272 ?
21 Dec 1988 mid-air bombing of Pan Am flight over Lockerbie, Scotland 270 12
20 Nov-5 Dec 1979 hostage taking at Grand Mosque in Mecca, Saudi Arabia (includes 87 terrorists killed) 240 600
21 Feb 2004 armed attack and arson at refugee camp, Uganda 239 60
29 Aug 1997 attacks at Sidi Moussa and Hais Rais, Algeria 238 ?
31 Oct 1999 intentional crash of Egypt Air flight off Massachusetts, USA, by pilot 217 0
12 Oct 2002 car bombing outside nightclub in Kuta, Indonesia 202 350
23 Nov 2006 multiple car bombings in Baghdad, Iraq 202 250
11 Jul 2006 multiple bombings on commuter trains in Mumbai, India 200 714
18 Apr 2007 multiple bombings in Baghdad, Iraq 193 197
11 Mar 2004 bombings of four trains in Madrid, Spain 191 1,876
2 Mar 2004 multiple suicide bombings at shrines in Kadhimiya and Karbala, Iraq 188 430
14 Sep 2005 multiple suicide bombings and shooting attacks in Baghdad, Iraq 182 679
7 Jul 2007 multiple suicide truck bombings in Armili and area, Iraq 182 270
4 Jan 1998 attacks at Had Chekala, Remka, and Ain Tarik, Algeria 172 ?
19 Sep 1989 mid-air bombing of French UTA flight near Bilma, Niger 171 0
26 Oct 2002 hostage taking and attempted rescue in theater in Moscow, Russia (includes 41 terrorists killed) 170 656
19 Apr 1995 truck bombing of federal building, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, USA 169 675
16 Apr 1925 bombing of cathedral in Sophia, Bulgaria 160 ?
10 Aug 2001 attack on train south of Luanda, Angola 152 146
14 May 1985 armed attack on crowds in Anuradhapura, Sri Lanka 150 ?
14-19 June 1996 hostage taking in Budennovsk, Russia, and two failed rescue attempts 143 435
3 Aug 1990 armed attack at two mosques in Kathankudy, Sri Lanka 140 70
3 Feb 2007 truck bombing in marketplace in Baghdad, Iraq 137 334
28 Feb 2005 car bombing outside medical clinic in Hilla, Iraq 135 130
2 Oct 1990 crash of hijacked PRC airliner in Guangzhou, PRC 132 49
13 Sep 1999 bombing of apartment building in Moscow, Russia 130 150
18 Apr 1987 roadway ambush near Alut Oya, Sri Lanka 127 64
23 Nov 1996 crash of hijacked Ethiopian Air flight off Comoros 127 48
29 Aug 2003 car bombing outside mosque in Najaf, Iraq 125 500
5 Jan 2006 bombings in Karbala, Ramadi, and Baghdad, Iraq 124 203
13 Aug 1990 armed attack at mosque in Eravur, Sri Lanka 122 79
27 Feb 2004 bombing and fire on ferry near Manila, Philippines 118 9
29 Nov 1987 mid-air bombing of Korean Air flight near Burma 115 0
23 Sep 1983 crash of Gulf Air flight following mid-air bombing over the UAE 112 0
27 Nov 1989 mid-air bombing of Avianca flight in Bogota, Columbia 110 ?
1 Feb 2004 two suicide bombings of political party offices in Irbil, Iraq 109 240
21 Apr 1987 bombing of bus depot in Columbo, Sri Lanka 106 295
22 Sep 1993 crash of airliner struck by missile in Sukhumi, Georgia 106 26
24 Jun 2004 multiple bombings and armed attacks in several cities in Iraq 103 324
16 Oct 2006 suicide bombing of military convoy near Habarana, Sri Lanka 103 150
11 Jan 1998 attack on movie theater and mosque at Sidi Hamed, Algeria 103 70
4-10 Jul 2007 hostage taking and army storming of mosque in Islamabad, Pakistan 102 ?
22 Jan 2007 multiple bombings and mortar attack on marketplaces in Baghdad and Baquba, Iraq 101 186
13 Dec 1921 bombing of Bolgard palace in Bessarabia (modern Moldova) 100 ?
18 May 1973 mid-air bombing of Aeroflot airliner, Siberia 100 0
4 Dec 1977 crash of hijacked Malaysian airliner near Malaysia 100 0

[sup-rbeast]

OK...now care to go back over the past 1500 years and look at the wrongs propagated by Christians ? Some folks have a long memory. Just because it didn't happen yesterday doesn't mean it didn't happen.